free. free. and free. video for your media project and a free media gun to our t.v. don't try. to solve all the way here in north even says the russian foreign minister slams naysay members for their ranch in the conflict told the arab world what's amusing with his french and. greece is the e.u. to hand over its promise a bailout of the parliament approved deep spending cuts and a state also sell off the measures that include radical tax increases will cost the spice three days of angry protests. targeted by nato and wanted out of the hague

in an exclusive interview with r.t. colonel gadhafi son shares this piece on the libya is out for five hour islam thinks the country is being targeted for its riches this is the people will fight for libya from forming on the foreign control. ok that's all for me more world news than around a thirty minutes time with a tough sell syria before babil a balance close to gas debate well the western led military intervention in libya is getting stuck in the sounds of north africa. and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle quagmire and standoff in libya is there

a military solution to the conflict in libya and a stable democratic and whole libya be created through the use of force museum change and is there still a realistic possibility of a political solution. to. the process of the ongoing conflict in libya i'm joined by jim brann in london he's the spokesperson for the stop the war coalition also in london we have and is al gore marty he's a libyan political analyst and in los angeles we cross to omar torre of he is a political analyst and a founding member of the libyan human rights commission all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means crosstalk rules in effect and that means you can jump any time you want and i always start this program with the person that had to get up early as far as i'm going to go to you are in los angeles is there a political solution to the conflict ongoing conflict now in libya because we see why mainstream media says that's not a possibility though we hear here european officials saying there is there should

be a possibility of a political solution and we have the the international criminal court saying they could offer his son and a security chief should be indicted for war crimes and that kind of says you shouldn't talk to people like that so i ask my question again is there a political solution to the ongoing conflict quagmire standoff in libya. peter thank you so much for having me on. it depends on your definition of what a political solution is. quite simply if he and his family leave libya we want to have any war we want to have any bloodshed we want to have any killings going on in the libyans will go about their. construction are very good moccasin i want to refer your audience to a report that just came out yesterday by the national democratic institute you can find that on my web site on our turby dot org and which actually spelled out what

the transition period would be and how it would take place to answer your question really yes there is a political solution and i get that he believes that his kids that we can actually begin to to omar omar there's a moment i can interrupt there's no indication they're going to leave ok so i mean to stop the bloodshed maybe there should be talks and i'd like to turn that question to jim i mean i'll ask the question again can there be a political solution because the current regime shows no interest in leaving the scene it will continue to fight and after the indictments from the international criminal court it looks like they will continue to fight because there is no way out now for those people do you think. yes i mean i think i think the quagmire will only get worse you cannot present i think you cannot present the interest of nato as being the interest of the libyan people nato and the nato powers have converted

to the libyan civil war into something else and that will roll on and i know the fact for example the day the african union summit convenes in. in equitorial guinea and we know that gadhafi won't be there but the question one question might be will shear of sudan be because remember that there was a into load what he has ever been indicted by the international criminal court except somebody from africa and the most the highest ranking one is the president of sudan and the african countries are cocking a snoot at this international criminal court because it is seen to be simply a tool of the western powers and that will roll on so the credibility of it for example will be shot and the fact that william hague gets up when the international criminal court issued this indictment two days ago and says this only proves our point remember that the statute is the international criminal court is entirely skewed the supreme international crime as it's defined is the crime of aggression

and it was the foreign office legal advisers here in london who to a man and woman's the iraq war with a crime of aggression and that's simply been left out of the statute otherwise tony blair would be on trial in london for example or in the hague or wherever so it's very much seen as askew there's your mischaracterizations your answer all right i gave him or let me first clearly for the first fairness and then we'll discuss that here because i just would like to maybe go on a little bit further with what are jim had to say here it seems to me now a bit mate when nato decides it wants three or use military force against a country it uses the international criminal court to is a political tool we now it's really turning into last year in service of warfare what do you think about that. well. if you mean. the because of the fact that tony blair and george bush weren't voted for war

crimes. you know by extension we shouldn't because of the fear of whether or not these people are in the know it's the case that the crimes warrants such as such as . if verdict being put on their head and with a very very strong very very strong statement to the rest of the players in the world but if you do follow such vicious and such horrible crimes against your people but you won't be given or. as easily as you think you may. tony blair or george bush should be should be investigated for their crimes in iraq but it doesn't mean by extension that you know that the arab dictators of the world to get away with such heinous crimes ok omar you want to jump in there i mean if you see it seems kind of i did you know you should be indicted for war crimes if you kill other people not your own people but if you kill your own people you should be indicted and seems kind of skewed in itself omar go ahead. but what i'm

trying to say. there is no civil war going on in libya we're not talking to war factions with equal amount of weapons the libyan regime decided to kill its own people with its own military machine. innocent civilians that's one too i think. for in london is saying there are no people that have been indicted outside of africa by the balkan states we have at least one or two people there were indicted and. you know you. know you're going to genocide the international i think the international criminal court which began operations in two thousand and two specifically the international criminal court has now and i think five sets of people all of them from africa and nobody else that's just a factual correction ok but omar i mean if you're saying this is just civil war then what is it because i just be obama administration isn't call it

a war either it likes to use the term kinetic military action is that what you would call it as well what is kinetic military action. you know i haven't heard that tell you i know that i don't lose to be honest with you but yeah but it's really not you know it was it was it was a divine it as it is. yeah go ahead but i think i think we're looking for we're looking a very different perspective you i mean you can call it a civil war if you'd like to but i think. you're almost equating it to to moral equivalence to morally equal swords which is a group of the first but it was a revolution occurring in libya and it was being suppressed with the most violent means on the. missiles and bullets were followed at civilians and so if you want to call it a civil war to free to ignore the facts on the ground which is the personal army i was talking a civilian population i don't think history will go. as a civil war. ok jim if i can go to you why should nato be in the business of

forcefully changing regime presumably to bring democracy and one has to wonder if it's good to keep the country together is one sovereign state i mean why is nato mission now. well i think in a way i'm as police are in it although i think in the wrong way the fact that libya has been singled out in this way the fact that for example could after he has been indicted in the fastest process ever indulged in by the international criminal court unprecedented speed whereas no other arab leader and i would single out in this particular context for example the king of bahrain is not being singled out. but not nor has any other head of anyone or in any other arab. i mean i'm told the bankers here think it's and you're ignoring the very annoying of the good the he's the completely different type of force to suppress and more so we were facing the

same force in libya as the bahrain is used for the libyan people not asking for international intervention but when the scenario changed the reality in the fundamentals of the details of the growth were completely different it was an armed conflict now the civilians on and the army is on and it calls for intervention it's not the case and her and please do not try to eliminate israel and it is a very good story you know and it's if i could stay with you i could stay with you and it's real quickly i mean i don't think anybody on this program is wants to justify anything that mr gadhafi has done or not done i don't see that happening on this program however the indictment does seem to legitimize if not moral or morally allow the continued bombing of libya and i think that's the point that jim is getting at here but i think well you know they're going to you can it's going to be nothing to do with each other ok i'm sorry don't go first listen nobody jim and i had the bombing of our country i mean you'd be hard pushed for many many libyans complaining of of tolerance of being on them in but bombing anything that you know

libyans off wouldn't want to go on but bombing joyeuse facilities they're not bombing for the most and often the of interest. and there have been cases where a few civilians have thought there's a civilians dying but oh well at the time for a very minute it's the intention behind the person to mention to try to kill civilians that is beyond the fact that it is not for this for me to entertain or debate so upon the country almost seems that we're trying to constantly is there because it's because it's been a success ok omar amare i think i referred to you is jim i would go more go ahead you had a point go ahead. i'm saying is and diving get that is . not has no relationship to nato is increasing its bombing or the start of the bombing or ending the bombing you know it's that this guy committed crimes against the populace civilians and he deserves he pain is crimes from

rape of women to bring in mercenaries from outside the country and killing people so this is a no this is the truth of the matter he can you know he conducted himself in this fashion and he deserves to be tried as a matter of fact i would really rather see him tried inside libya and this man this isn't a february seventeenth revolution. are not the only crimes that get back to committed he's been committing crimes in libya since nineteen seventy three i mean there's thousands and thousands of people were killed and and towards heard a lot of them are really going to have to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . india

is available in the grand central. bank president bush

the fabled. beach resort. taj mahal hotel charges the summer hotel. motel. in the radio. the hotel's shirts in new delhi hotel. maybe hotel clary collection. maidens hotel. medicine ship. the taper cash cuts. can. welcome back across the talk i'm curious about to mind you were talking about regime change in libya. egypt. ok jim i'd like to go to you in london me we just heard omar mentioning about rapes

and other heinous crimes being committed in libya right now but you know i look at wait wait mainstream media and you see those reports and then i checked amnesty international human rights watch and they have not been able to determine any credible witnesses to mass rapes in khadafi libya now there seems to be a very big skewing of lines here between what name stream media western governments and what reputable human rights groups have to say about what's happening in libya how do you explain that. i think the thing is very simple you cannot possibly take the question of libya or what happened in libya outside of the context of the nato powers interests geopolitical interest it makes no sense whatsoever i think the starting point of any discussion should remain what was agreed in the first half of the twentieth century and it should stay there the fact that they are shifting the position the fact that they are tearing up agreements in the first half of the

twentieth century makes no difference if you abandon that as your starting point then i think you fall into the swamp and then it's the very same swamp that was established in the first half of the twentieth century which arrived at the conclusion that you could not use humanitarian pretext for the intervention for the use of force on the world scale that was the issue that was world was agreed in the late one nine hundred forty s. and i think i think that nothing of that has changed and so richard is. this i. if you have the same mr colville peter if you allow me peter if you are oh i'm sorry. i couldn't distinguish you saying one guy had you know what i had on or i'm quite disturbed to hear people i mean you're referring to. human rights watch or amnesty international or whatever reporting agencies as far as rape in libya. there has been definite definite rapes in libya

of at least three hundred fifty reported cases i was just in libya for three and a half weeks i've seen people in tears families. and in such bad emotional condition because either the daughters were raped specifically the orders came directly from god and yes i believe you know your omar that i'm like this mysterious that maybe true or not true but you know media reports and a lot of media coverage of the arab awakening is been very skewed for a very different reasons here and we have plenty of people that are so what you don't want to justify nato's aggression is well i mean and this if i can go to you like this again this uprising go to you i mean do you want to see a libya that is created by nato through aggression through war is designed to use it without how do you sit with that what do you want to do that why do you use that word aggressor here one second we're employing i mean first and foremost the

aggression there's no end to the people the people and so we have the criminals of the whole. industries in the world the question what year was higher morals and values but what about international law what about international law. well intellectual insolvency to hell with sovereignty being raped them all and we're well into playing for a minute these bizarre or well if you will trickle sponsors which come at the expense of people when we talk about this because bigotry has the. kind of you know. mechanic kind of a you know moron if you want to call it because i'm one of you know i'm one of the kind of styles a newbie or i care about what he thinks of solving things i see more people being great person what will be murdered well what i'm saying international law saying celebrities already when we women and children being murdered and if we followed the logical conclusion of the line of argument of someone like jim will be mourning hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in libya and you want to trust with us to look at what would be different has no idea of his track record or his intentions

and doesn't you know for me they're walking on a very very morally dubious ground here and i toyed with us but let me go on to a certain point and the second point is that if we feel that nato later is aggression we're going to roll call it is that is the defining factor in libya where taken into account you know it's completely besides the fact the fact is it's the libyans here the equal power brokers they're the ones i think on the ground are the ones are risking their lives they're the ones and molding this country in a vision that they want to and i think we have heroes as europeans as people of the world who are now calling for twenty first century muscles have aligned ourselves with hollywood moral values ok if that's fair just even if it can be used a lot of if i go to the gym here you know international law was created to protect people ok and to avoid these kinds of things ok i mean i'll ask you the same question to me here nato is intervention i'll take the word aggression out if you want intervention here because your mission creep that we've seen over the last few months can i create a viable libya that is sovereign and not dependent upon outside forces like other

countries that make up nato particularly the united states. but nato took longer to see. stanley due to the un go ahead jim go ahead what what you will have in libya if nato succeed the heart succeeds is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will have presented itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eight percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention of the three biggest military spenders all three of the four billion it's regarded as a really big there in disarray as it is and you're in surrender as a result of their employees like their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for

example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian and it's an easy and he's a very good wishes to sort them out and listening to is our why there is no you have to. answer worse than anti america you know if you're looking at what you allow yourself the whole your moral values here and support people who want freedom you know would you allow them to be massacred because you know didn't you know you mentioned to people like i like mark question i mean it this intervention the international criminal court's indictments this is that undermined what the opposition the rebels the rebels are supposed to do because now they just wave back and say well let nato take care of it for us ok then they also become puppets of an outside force is that why sum up for them no that is a theoretical question it's a fair question omar what do you think about that. you know first of all you know why are you saying why are we saying that nato is intervening or conduct and aggression in libya they have received their mandate by

a un resolution nineteen seventy three i mean by that i let me just remind you let me remind you of an event that took place in two thousand and eight putin of russia went into georgia and tried to save the georgians and the russians that live in georgia i guess why did you go and you weren't gonna. received a mandate from the u.n. to go in and save lives under the british that under the pretext or the reality of protecting human rights and that's exactly what happened there and and it wasn't an aggression against georgia so it's a totally different set of analysis totally different analysis doesn't apply the book or a very different one point from this you know i mean it's a valid mission creep the whole things about mission creep nine hundred resolution nine hundred seventy three said one thing and we have something completely different now that is the point jim what do you think about it what's the point i would probably do is that a no fly zone to everyone intervening boots on the ground that's

a big difference jim go ahead if if the if the head of government so military superpower and two. dominant members of nato declare their intention is that the government of that country schol change that's the that's the issue and if they do it by violence the people that are so sure that the people decide the issue that's an issue for. trying to affect them so interesting because we're only a month away from or four months away from it so let's not try to interrupt a free for the kids or do we all of. these people want their trains they came out to protest they were massacred they were massacred as the massacres in libya. why do you want to you want to replay it when i was a mother who really had cancer must really in your chair with a blue and without a layer of the muster put up in a massacre then when they saw the tip of the no outsiders. so you said back in

february march where was the massacre you said oh my circle where were you talking about but i have been a cripple in the massacre's. massacres in tripoli on lone protester it's a short one you know when he referring to be very very colorful when you will refer to the second group i'm referring to the second week of the year of the protests when they reach tripoli and went over the bridge of holland to think of this thousands of protests was solid and they were shot at and in areas and push them are areas that i know has all been through there is that my friends there and people have been massacred and you want to try to call them later and so it's a question you will say that it's later this intervening is all right gentlemen gentlemen let's not dwell too much on this or omar i'd like to ask you this here because it's have a broader context you know if we look we're old if we look at the world through jim we want to see would be mourning the death of thousands of thousand more people as we move on the birth of people in rwanda i don't want to have the work office you

don't want to have on your consider well i think mido saying go ahead judas nature has a lot on its conscience to if we go back to kosovo and we get a stance ok jim go ahead does graduate you're saying i'm asked are nasa scientists time he is saying because some people were shot in tripoli although this wasn't publicized i take his word for it some people were shocked in tripoli in february some people were still on that basis nato the mighty the sole power block in the world can then proceed to launch a war of eleven thousand missions including four and a half thousand strike missions because it declares the resolution pretext on that basis why cannot nato intervened anywhere and little to any size any government should anybody go threat to kill people and others a threat to kill people and others it was imminent it was imminent people who were out of there would not risk in which a large time i think we're wasting too much time i know martin you know last word on margaret's last word of this program go ahead. first of all jim i'm sorry to

tell you that you have absolutely no credibility in your argument whatsoever the whole entire world says this on all networks from c.n.n. so as a zero to b.b.c. to some parts of russian t.v. the libyan people deserve to be how then they were saved to hell and that's that's the bottom line so to say that that you know they too doesn't doesn't have any legal right to go in and help the libyan people from being massacred by the libyan regime just makes absolutely no internal and i'm sure we all have the welfare of the libyan people at stake here many thanks my guest today in london and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember prostate. cancer.

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